If

[praying]

If you found out tomorrow that God did/did not exist what would you do? Would you feel the need to rewrite your entire life. To change your approach to anything?

[Texas Lynn]

I wouldn't change anything I wouldn't change otherwise. There would be no need to. If you do what's right, it's its own reward.

[Lanakila]

If you found out tomorrow that God did/did not exist what would you do? Would you feel the need to rewrite your entire life. To change your approach to anything?

Well, it really would depend on what type of God you are talking about. If you are talking about the Christian Bible God that I once believed in, I just don't think it's possible that he could exist. I did change when I found out he doesn't.My life didn't change but,not all that drastically. I started living for now instead of future rewards, which made me quit suffering in an unhappy marriage because that God doesn't exist to judge me and/or punish me for the "sin" of divorce. My morals didn't change all that much except in regards to sex because evangelical Christianity loves to call any kind of sex outside of a traditional marriage sin. (Catholics are even more strict on this condemning BC) I did quit forcing my kids to go to church, and pressuring them to be fundamentalist Christians, much to their relief.

[His Noodly Appendage]

Avenge the Midianites.

[Loki]

Reminds me of this (http://uberchristians.org/vb/showthread.php?t=508) post.

I'd like to think my actions wouldn't change. If I were presented with incontrovertible evidence of some sort of sadistic deity, the likes of which some people at unspeakable BBs ascribe to, I hope I'd have the presence of mind to "politely return my ticket [to salvation]," or not so politely tell it to "go do some anatomically impossible things."

[praying]

I wouldn't change anything I wouldn't change otherwise. There would be no need to. If you do what's right, it's its own reward.

So are you saying that none of your behaviors are driven by your belief in God? Whatever that means to you.

Well, it really would depend on what type of God you are talking about.

That's a good question, I am talking about for those that belief in God hte God of their beliefs. For those that 's don't I guess any God. What i=would it mean to you to know that there is a God?


If you are talking about the Christian Bible God that I once believed in,


For me yes I am speaking of the Christian God, but unlikeyou I have never been a fundamentalist or a Bile literalist so my view of the Christian God is probably vastly differnt than what yours was.

I just don't think it's possible that he could exist.

But what if he/she did?

I did change when I found out he doesn't.My life didn't change but,not all that drastically. I started living for now instead of future rewards, which made me quit suffering in an unhappy marriage because that God doesn't exist to judge me and/or punish me for the "sin" of divorce. My morals didn't change all that much except in regards to sex because evangelical Christianity loves to call any kind of sex outside of a traditional marriage sin. (Catholics are even more strict on this condemning BC) I did quit forcing my kids to go to church, and pressuring them to be fundamentalist Christians, much to their relief.

Would you revisit these things? I guess that really depends on the type of God though.

Reminds me of this (http://uberchristians.org/vb/showthread.php?t=508) post.


Indeed

I'd like to think my actions wouldn't change. If I were presented with incontrovertible evidence of some sort of sadistic deity, the likes of which some people at unspeakable BBs ascribe to, I hope I'd have the presence of mind to "politely return my ticket [to salvation]," or not so politely tell it to "go do some anatomically impossible things."

Perhaps your instinct for survival would override this, no?

[ToyotaCamry]

Cheer. Having to muster faith in order to conform with society is emotionally overwhelming.

[BigToe]

I don't think I would change either. I mean, I guess church activities would be out, but those on are the decline for me anyway.

In terms of how I live my day to day life and things that guide and shape me in that manner, no, nothing would change. I wouldn't all of a sudden value something completely different or get joy from something opposite what gives me joy now. I'd still have the same values and tresure the same things, I'd still have the same flaws and be scared of the same things.

If a different God were proven to exist, I don't think it would change much either. I don't put must stock in any sort of eternal reward or punishments though, I think believing something for those reasons is a waste of my time.

[Captain Yesterday]

Here's a chilling thought: What if we all found out that tomorrow Allah really is God and the Koran really is his holy book. How many theistic types, having that knowledge, would go out and actually start following the commands of Islam (i.e. mutilating your daughters genitals, wearing veils, honor killings, suicide murders, jihads in general, etc ...)?

Now, apply that to any God and think of what a crummy ass world we would have. If it were the christian god we'd be saying hello to brand new inquisitions, non-hetero's would be in fear for their lives and so on.

Plain and simply, there's not been a god-concept in the history of mankind that isn't despicable at it's core.

[EgocentricMolecules]

I'm throwing my hat into the "It depends" camp as well. It would really depend upon what kind of god was revealed. I kinda believe in a god far above our understanding, and that all our religions are our attempt to understand it. So, if I found out there was some specific god, I suppose my actions would be contingent upon what kind of god that was.

If I found out there was no god at all, I suppose my actions wouldn't change a whole lot. I'd probably still go to church because my church is far more centered around social events and service than it is theology anyway. We'd be like, "There's no God? Okay, let's have a potluck."

[seebs]

Here's a chilling thought: What if we all found out that tomorrow Allah really is God and the Koran really is his holy book. How many theistic types, having that knowledge, would go out and actually start following the commands of Islam (i.e. mutilating your daughters genitals, wearing veils, honor killings, suicide murders, jihads in general, etc ...)?

Just to be picky:

Genital mutilation is unrelated to Islam. It's a cultural norm in some parts of Africa; in those areas, Muslims, Christians, and atheists all tend to do it. In other areas, Muslims don't do it any more than anyone else does. Honor killings? I think you're thinking of the Norse, there. Suicide murders? Economically rational, and found in every culture. Etcetera, etcetera.

That said, let us assume that the god hypothesized by people who watch a lot of Fox News exists, and answer the question...

Me, no. I would not obey. I do not bow to tyrants.

Now, apply that to any God and think of what a crummy ass world we would have. If it were the christian god we'd be saying hello to brand new inquisitions, non-hetero's would be in fear for their lives and so on.

Plain and simply, there's not been a god-concept in the history of mankind that isn't despicable at it's core.

This, I have to disagree with. I think you're mistaking "loudest and most personally dangerous followers" for "the underlying concept".

Imagine, if you will, a hypothetical god whose followers refuse to harm anyone, and will go to great lengths to feed the hungry, care for the sick, and so on. Congratulations! You've just reinvented pre-Constantine Christianity. :)

Although this raises an interesting point: Imagine that we got absolute confirmation that the most fuzzy-bunnies religious folks were right, that God is just a big ol' teddy bear, that no one goes to hell, and that no one should kill anyone, really, even if they are being bad.

Can you imagine humans not going to war to spread this news? I can't.

AHHH! THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!

[praying]

I don't think I would change either. I mean, I guess church activities would be out, but those on are the decline for me anyway.

In terms of how I live my day to day life and things that guide and shape me in that manner, no, nothing would change. I wouldn't all of a sudden value something completely different or get joy from something opposite what gives me joy now. I'd still have the same values and tresure the same things, I'd still have the same flaws and be scared of the same things.

If a different God were proven to exist, I don't think it would change much either. I don't put must stock in any sort of eternal reward or punishments though, I think believing something for those reasons is a waste of my time.

I don't think (think being the operative word here) I would change either but one never knows. I do think it is very easy to say what we would or would not do but faced with the realities of a very different world we might not be the person we think we would be.


I am very much like you in regards to the whole heaven/hell reward/punishment thing.

I had started a thread on CF a long long time ago (in a galaxy far far away ;)) asking would you still be a Christian if there was no heaven, meaning the promise of eternal reward.

[gomichan]

AHHH! THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!

:rotfl:

[Captain Yesterday]

Just to be picky:

Genital mutilation is unrelated to Islam. It's a cultural norm in some parts of Africa; in those areas, Muslims, Christians, and atheists all tend to do it. In other areas, Muslims don't do it any more than anyone else does. Honor killings? I think you're thinking of the Norse, there. Suicide murders? Economically rational, and found in every culture. Etcetera, etcetera.

I'll grant the genital one, because i'm not an expert on the subject so I defer to your knowledge which I assume to be superior on the item. Honor killings is quite an islamic thing though. If you missed the story of Du'a Khalil Aswad, you might want to read about it ... if you can stomach it that is.

Yes, the suicide murderers can be found in every religious culture. Again we are postulating that the particular god known as Allah existed which includes the well-known rewards for martyrdom. Not many religions promise an eternity of paradise for blowing yourself and a bunch of strangers up as much as Islam does.



This, I have to disagree with. I think you're mistaking "loudest and most personally dangerous followers" for "the underlying concept".

Imagine, if you will, a hypothetical god whose followers refuse to harm anyone, and will go to great lengths to feed the hungry, care for the sick, and so on. Congratulations! You've just reinvented pre-Constantine Christianity. :)

Although this raises an interesting point: Imagine that we got absolute confirmation that the most fuzzy-bunnies religious folks were right, that God is just a big ol' teddy bear, that no one goes to hell, and that no one should kill anyone, really, even if they are being bad.

Can you imagine humans not going to war to spread this news? I can't.

AHHH! THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!

Seebs, there has quite plainly never been any deity that has not engaged in what we would consider immoral and abominable practices were it not for their divinity.

And you're mistaken right off the bat about the pre-Constantine Christianity. You made the claim of "refuse to harm anyone" yet the bible speaks of one of the apostles cutting off a mans ear when they came for Jesus. Early christianity was a bloody fight over what theological concepts were correct and which weren't and often the matter was resolved through bloodshed. The "Good Old Days" weren't.

If the fuzzy-bunnies religious folk were right, then they would only be partly right because they would not be speaking of Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, Odin, Zeus, Shiva etc .... And if they were right that there is a God who is all love and light then he needs a divine ass-kicking for screwing it up so much and letting these other tribal warlord gods make such a mess of things. The only well-wishing God that could exist and not be held accountable for being incompetent at the least is the Deistic god, one that made everything and hopes we do well and then nipped off for a cosmic drink and hasn't paid one lick of attention since. At least that sort of god I wouldn't find despicable, just apathetic.

[BadBadBad]

If you found out tomorrow that God did/did not exist what would you do? Would you feel the need to rewrite your entire life. To change your approach to anything?

If we all found out tomorrow that a god did exist, why do you think anyone would need to rewrite our entire life? First off, I'd think that if a god existed the first thing we'd want to know is what exactly is this god entity and how its existence relates to our own. Perhaps we should start from there before we start rewriting our entire existence and changing our approach to life?

[BigToe]

I had started a thread on CF a long long time ago (in a galaxy far far away ;)) asking would you still be a Christian if there was no heaven, meaning the promise of eternal reward.If heaven or hell exist or not has no bearing on the here and now for me. To do something simply because you will be rewarded for it or simply because it will help you avoid punishment seems like a weak reason to do something, at least for me. If I believed something for those reasons, I think I'd have a very shallow belief and it would be easier for me to mistreat others or condemn them or whatever if I used the basis of "oh well there is a hell they're going to". It seems like it gives people justification for not caring about others and for me, that is completely contrary to the beliefs I hold.

If your question were different and asked if I found out today that I was for sure going to Heaven or Hell would I change the answer would still be I don't think so. Because my values are pretty wired into who I am at this point that I can't see any guiding principles of my life altering in such a way to really change much about who I am. And admittedly, it makes the whole belief/faith concept a bit difficult for me of late because not thinking I would change or it change me leads me to wonder what the point really is.

Heh, it's one thing I think 12 step programs have gotten right: take it one day at a time. Why do I need to worry about what happens to me when I die, when I am living right now and have so much I can still do that matters right now.

[Texas Lynn]

So are you saying that none of your behaviors are driven by your belief in God? Whatever that means to you.

Yes and no, whatever that means to you.

I think this particular dialogue is our dance around the often-stated or hinted at fundamentalist stance that "if there wasn't a god or heaven or hell people would just do whatever they want!" That's one of the biggest bullshit arguments ever. The converse "Since there is a God, regular people get coerced into doing what religious authorities want them to do while the religious authorities themselves (cf, Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, et al) exercise carte blanche to ignore the rules they impose on the great mass of people".

One should do what right because it's right, not out of any fear or anticipation of eternal reward or punishment. A person who does the latter is but sychopant and a coward. An atheist who makes hard choices to do what's right is ultimately so much more moral than a believer who follows the supposed moral stance because he or she fears hell and/or desires heaven.

[pageroks]

If you found out tomorrow that God did/did not exist what would you do? Would you feel the need to rewrite your entire life. To change your approach to anything?

I guess I wouldn't be rewriting my life but I would certainly be disappointed. No so much because heaven would be gone but that I think certain things transcend man or are too important to be left to men.

I would probably stop praying and reading my Bible and begin meditation or something like that. I would see no need to continue in going to church. Unless that church was going to "switch gears" and do some type of community service or action project. (I hope that makes sense.)

I don't know that there not being a God would change my mind on abortion. I do consider it murder even though I believe Christ dictates that since it's the law of the land don't buck it (or free will, take your pick). I suppose that makes me pro-choice technically and while I guess it wouldn't be murder with no soul I still would have a hard time with it.

I still think there are good reasons not to be promiscuous with or without religion.

Even though I consider myself a fundamentalist I don't think being homosexual sends you to hell. Or that in America their rights should be restricted. (That's that whole free will thing again.)

So I really don't think my views would change on most things all that much.

[Abiel]

I would keep following Jesus grasshopper

[BadBadBad]

I guess I wouldn't be rewriting my life but I would certainly be disappointed. No so much because heaven would be gone but that I think certain things transcend man or are too important to be left to men.

How could heaven be gone? If God does not exist, heaven never existed. For you though, heaven exists in your imagination. You imagine that it exists, and that's all there is to its existence if in fact God does not exist. Why would your imagination of heaven cease to exist if you found out God did not exist?

I would probably stop praying and reading my Bible and begin meditation or something like that. I would see no need to continue in going to church. Unless that church was going to "switch gears" and do some type of community service or action project. (I hope that makes sense.)

Why would you stop praying to a god that you previously only imagined and prayed to? That's what this imaginary God supposedly expects of me. I don't believe a God exists, yet I'm expected to imagine he is real, bow down to that imagination, and pray for my salvation from that imagination. Why would you not be able to do that if you came to believe that God does not exist?

I don't know that there not being a God would change my mind on abortion. I do consider it murder even though I believe Christ dictates that since it's the law of the land don't buck it (or free will, take your pick). I suppose that makes me pro-choice technically and while I guess it wouldn't be murder with no soul I still would have a hard time with it.


If God doesn't exist, why do you think that morality would exist? Christians tell me that God is the only basis for morality we have. If there is no moral obligation to God, why do you think you'd still be moral?

I still think there are good reasons not to be promiscuous with or without religion.

So would you come to believe that promiscuity itself was immoral or would you believe that certain aspects of promiscuity were immoral, for example the transmission of sexual diseases or unwanted pregnancy. If it's not the intrinsic sin against God that is the issue, what would you base your morality on?


Even though I consider myself a fundamentalist I don't think being homosexual sends you to hell. Or that in America their rights should be restricted. (That's that whole free will thing again.)

Would you find homosexuality immoral if there were no God?

So I really don't think my views would change on most things all that much.

So, what do you think it is that God finds so forgivable about your imagination of God? How does that differentiate you from atheists in God's judgment?

[BadBadBad]

I would keep following Jesus grasshopper

Confucius say, If you follow a dead guy, you won't get very far in life.

[BadBadBad]

So I really don't think my views would change on most things all that much.

From another angle, you don't know for sure today that God exists. You have faith in men that their stories about God are true. Only if you found out for sure that God existed, for example if God appeared before you, wouldn't you want to hear God tell you what he is, what he wants from you, and what purpose he has for you? Would you want to hear that from God, or would you continue to have faith in men?

What if God turned out to be Allah? All you're allowed to know for sure is that he exists and he is a god. Would you continue to have faith in men about a Judeo-Christian God or would you want to know about God?

[His Noodly Appendage]

B3!

I didn't know you were a member here!

Hi!

[seebs]

From another angle, you don't know for sure today that God exists. You have faith in men that their stories about God are true. Only if you found out for sure that God existed, for example if God appeared before you, wouldn't you want to hear God tell you what he is, what he wants from you, and what purpose he has for you? Would you want to hear that from God, or would you continue to have faith in men?

What if God turned out to be Allah? All you're allowed to know for sure is that he exists and he is a god. Would you continue to have faith in men about a Judeo-Christian God or would you want to know about God?

I think this is where I have a hard time making sense of these hypotheticals.

How, exactly, would this knowledge come to me? How would I be sure of it? This kind of thing matters. Do we mean actually-knowing, or merely having confidence? What about having the information, but not having any particular certainty about it?

I have a hard time with hypotheticals that posit a piece of information without talking about how we come to be certain of it. There are a number of circumstances under which I will reject a claim even though I am experientially certain of it, because metacognition has taught me to distrust some kinds of certainty.

[praying]

Seebs, there has quite plainly never been any deity that has not engaged in what we would consider immoral and abominable practices were it not for their divinity.


No there has never been a time when man "has not engaged in what we would consider immoral and abominable practices" supposedly in the name of God. It is the one thing we are not and that is enlightened, that is why I question all that say they would not chnage anything. We change to suit the percieved reality.


If the fuzzy-bunnies religious folk were right, then they would only be partly right because they would not be speaking of Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, Odin, Zeus, Shiva etc .... And if they were right that there is a God who is all love and light then he needs a divine ass-kicking for screwing it up so much and letting these other tribal warlord gods make such a mess of things. The only well-wishing God that could exist and not be held accountable for being incompetent at the least is the Deistic god, one that made everything and hopes we do well and then nipped off for a cosmic drink and hasn't paid one lick of attention since. At least that sort of god I wouldn't find despicable, just apathetic.


Perhaps God intervenes in small ways and you are looking for grandiose grand standing of the nature that says I am here.

[seebs]

I'll grant the genital one, because i'm not an expert on the subject so I defer to your knowledge which I assume to be superior on the item. Honor killings is quite an islamic thing though. If you missed the story of Du'a Khalil Aswad, you might want to read about it ... if you can stomach it that is.

Yes, the suicide murderers can be found in every religious culture. Again we are postulating that the particular god known as Allah existed which includes the well-known rewards for martyrdom. Not many religions promise an eternity of paradise for blowing yourself and a bunch of strangers up as much as Islam does.

I didn't say every religious culture. The Economist did an analysis on it a while back; the basic premise is sound, if you're willing to accept military service at all.

However, you're still mistaking "some Muslims believe X" for "Islam teaches X".

Seebs, there has quite plainly never been any deity that has not engaged in what we would consider immoral and abominable practices were it not for their divinity.

I'd grant this, if I were absolutely convinced that every claim followers make about their deities is factual. I am not thus convinced yet.

And you're mistaken right off the bat about the pre-Constantine Christianity. You made the claim of "refuse to harm anyone" yet the bible speaks of one of the apostles cutting off a mans ear when they came for Jesus.

And did Jesus endorse this action?

People lose their tempers. That doesn't mean it's a teaching of their religion.

Early christianity was a bloody fight over what theological concepts were correct and which weren't and often the matter was resolved through bloodshed. The "Good Old Days" weren't.

And yet, strangely, until Constantine, military service was frowned on, to the extent of being viewed as incompatible...

I don't think it got properly bloody until later.

If the fuzzy-bunnies religious folk were right, then they would only be partly right because they would not be speaking of Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, Odin, Zeus, Shiva etc ....

I could just as well say "if the violent religious folk were right, they would only be partly right, because they would not be speaking of..."

You're assuming that the violent people are correct as to the nature of God. Why?

And if they were right that there is a God who is all love and light then he needs a divine ass-kicking for screwing it up so much and letting these other tribal warlord gods make such a mess of things. The only well-wishing God that could exist and not be held accountable for being incompetent at the least is the Deistic god, one that made everything and hopes we do well and then nipped off for a cosmic drink and hasn't paid one lick of attention since. At least that sort of god I wouldn't find despicable, just apathetic.

I am not particularly bothered by the notion of a loving God who chooses to let us fuck things up. Parenting's hard.

[BadBadBad]

I think this is where I have a hard time making sense of these hypotheticals.

What's hard to make sense out of?

How, exactly, would this knowledge come to me? How would I be sure of it? This kind of thing matters.

You would come to know exactly in the way that your characters in the Bible claim they came to know. They came to know through unequivocal and undeniable experiences with God himself. Why do you not have a problem with the hypotheticals presented in some ancient old biblical stories, but now the identical hypothetical in reality is really confusing?


Do we mean actually-knowing, or merely having confidence? What about having the information, but not having any particular certainty about it?


What you have now is faith. You have confidence through allegiance, loyalty, and obligation to men. That has to do with men not god. The hypothetical is that you have an unequivocal and undeniable experience with God. My question is whether you would prefer to rely on faith in fallible men to ascertain God, or should you rely on God himself?

I have a hard time with hypotheticals that posit a piece of information without talking about how we come to be certain of it.

You believe a hypothetically truthful story about a man that walks on water, feeds a multitude with a few fish, dies on the cross, comes back to life, and flies up into the sky to heaven as God. In the same story, we have 2000 suicidal pigs and dead saints coming out of their graves and walking around town, etc etc. How certain are you of that hypothetical and the accuracy of the information it presents us about God?

The OP hypothetical offers you not just an ancient hypothetical story with nothing but a corrupt history and ad populum fallacy in its presentation of the truth, it offers you an unequivocal and undeniable experience with an omnipotent God in reality.

There are a number of circumstances under which I will reject a claim even though I am experientially certain of it, because metacognition has taught me to distrust some kinds of certainty.

How can you reject your own certainty? That's like an oxymoron. Do you deny that an omnipotent God can present himself such that none can deny, such that none could doubt, such that none, even the mighty sage Seebs could be uncertain of his Truth? The question is would you want that, or would you still prefer faith in the corrupt men, culture and history that brought you hypothetical stories of God?

[BadBadBad]

B3!

I didn't know you were a member here!

Hi!

As of today, in all my badness!

[BadBadBad]

I pray to God because I believe He exists. If the evidence that God did not exist was presented and I believed that why would I pray? Do you pray to a God you don't believe in, no. Again I find your questions to be baiting. I don't expect you to do anything a person of faith does that involves interacting with God.

I don't believe in God because the evidence for God is insufficient for my belief. Finding out that God does not exist would put you in exactly the same boat as I'm in now. Let's say that after you found out that God doesn't exist, someone came to you and asked you to have faith that God did exist, despite the evidence. You'd be asked to have faith in them, the culture, the history, the authors of the Bible, etc. You'd be asked to believe on exactly the same basis I'm expected to form a belief on now. That basis would be insufficient, but you would be expected to believe anyway. Why not have faith, despite the evidence? Why not continue to maintain your image of God, Heaven, and Jesus Christ that you have now? Tell me, do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

I have never told anyone morality only exist because of God, you should ask someone who does. I was an atheist before I was a Christian ( which I'm sure you don't believe) and my values and morals have changed little.

So we as humans have morality independent of God? If we are able to define our own morality, why then do we need God? BTW, I have no trouble believing you were once atheist. I don't have any no true scottsman fallacies running about atheist to Christian conversions.

I recall posting I don't believe homosexuals go to Hell so what is your question based on?

It's based upon this concept you seem to have of human morality that is independent of God. I'm trying to see how the two sets of morality compare. With God, a sin is immoral. Although it may be linked to man, like murder, the immorality is really with respect to God. Primarily it impacts God and your relationship with God. If God doesn't exist, what is the basis for morality? This is a question Christians frequently ask, and I'm trying to get your answer in that you seem to believe mankind has morality independent of God. So without God, the sin against God, and what it does to your relationship with God do you think homosexuality is immoral, and if so, why? I'm just trying to get a feel for what your morality is without God.

I have no idea what God thinks of me or my thoughts. Perhaps one day I will find out, perhaps not. The only difference between me and an atheist is belief and faith that God exists. And maybe what type of food/movies/music we like.

I'm told that God finds this tiny little difference of belief and faith to be a incredibly profound difference. I always get those two concepts a bit confused. Do you have faith in God or faith in the men that present God to you? Do you have belief in God first and then faith in God, or do you have faith in men and then belief in God? I don't believe in God, and I don't have faith in the men that present him. I'm told it's such an important thing, I was hoping you could help me out with it. How would I go about coming to believe in God? How do I just come to believe in something that the evidence is insufficient to support?

One more thing, if you can bare any more baiting, I've always wondered why God reveals himself so insufficiently. Why do you think he has done that?

[gomichan]

One more thing, if you can bare any more baiting, I've always wondered why God reveals himself so insufficiently. Why do you think he has done that?

It makes pretty good sense from a religiously liberal point of view. If the point is for us to find our own way and pursue our best potential, rather than for us to get a certain score on some doctrinal test, then it would be counter to God's plan to force our hand. Just as you'd let your kids play T-ball and fall down and miss the ball and run the wrong way around the bases rather than getting out there on the field and playing the game for them.

Of course, if you believe there's eternal torture waiting for whoever loses this little T-ball game, then that's a pretty nasty God you've got there. But I don't believe any such thing, so the hands-off approach is just fine with me. :)

[BadBadBad]

It makes pretty good sense from a religiously liberal point of view. If the point is for us to find our own way and pursue our best potential, rather than for us to get a certain score on some doctrinal test, then it would be counter to God's plan to force our hand. Just as you'd let your kids play T-ball and fall down and miss the ball and run the wrong way around the bases rather than getting out there on the field and playing the game for them.

If God believes that playing baseball is our best potential, why do you think he'd reveal baseball to us in such a way that no one knows whether we're playing baseball as compared to soccer?

Of course, if you believe there's eternal torture waiting for whoever loses this little T-ball game, then that's a pretty nasty God you've got there. But I don't believe any such thing, so the hands-off approach is just fine with me. :)

I don't believe that God exists at all. However I have read significant parts of the Bible, and it's obvious to me that this is exactly what it says. In addition, my objection to Christianity is based not upon what the Bible says, but in how I experience religion through those that practice it.

Do you believe that God intends for us to play T-ball? In other words do you believe that God defines our best purpose as believing in and worshiping God? Also, the point I'm making is that what you know about God is fallible, and you accept it with a mixture of faith and reason. If you experienced God first hand, as shown many times in the Bible, would you still want to hold on to your current fallible understanding and to your current lifestyle that's based on that understanding? What if he told you that in fact, your best purpose in life is the pass a test on T-ball rules?

[BadBadBad]

I have faith because I believe.

So, you believe first, then you have faith in God. So, if you just believe in God, where is your free will and choice in the matter? Where is your obligation and duty to believe? If your belief just happens and you don't do it out of service to God, what's the value in that to God? If it's just a matter of belief, why doesn't God just reveal himself to everyone?

The hypothetical was what if you found out God did not exist. If that was proven that there was no God why would I continue to participate in something I don’t believe in? I have had a personal relationship with Christ but right now I’m too angry to speak to Him, so no I don’t.

Well, let's say that you and your buddy Jesus make amends before it's proven that God doesn't exist. Sounds kind of silly doesn't it? Now that it's shown that Jesus Christ is just a figment of your imagination, do you just ditch this cherished relationship? Sounds kind of impersonal and superficial to me. Are you one of those True Christians? I'm afraid it's sounding like you're not. If it was real before, why is it not real now?

Do you feel you have morals? I would imagine most people do. I guess the question would be what does God expect of believers. I personally believe God created the universe and while I try to have my morals meet His expectations I didn’t come to believe in Him because of them.

I believe in relative morality, and since I don't believe God exists, I don't believe God has anything to do with it at all. I didn't ask you here why you believe in God. I asked you what your morals are based upon outside of your relationship with God. For example if your morals are based upon human empathy, and you believe child abuse is immoral for that reason, why is it relevant that God thinks that is immoral?


Most people base their morality on what they feel is right and wrong. How many times have Christian butted heads on what they believe God thinks is right and wrong. For a Christian they should have their morality try to match Christ’s if they don’t want to be a hypocrite. Even with God and sin I don’t think that monogamous homosexual relationships are immoral. I do think promiscuity is.

From a Christian point of view, how do people determine what right or wrong is on anything without God? Why bother matching Christ's morality when no one can even agree what it is? Why bother when you have no choice in the matter of whether or not to be a sinner, ie immoral?


Based on the Old and New Testament I do think it's profound to God as I feel He expects to be worshipped. I came to believe God exists then came to have faith in Him. That faith has let me believe the some men are presenting God accurately. I don’t know how to help someone come to believe in God. You, I’m sure, have studied the Bible and have heard testimony from believers. If that has not affected you I don’t know what will. I would say that most who have come to believe in God has found proof in things you do not see as proof.

It's important then to believe in God. I have an obligation to believe in him and to worship him. I don't believe that a God exists, yet I'm continuously told about this obligation to believe in him. To me, it seems more of an obligation to people around me than it is to a non-existent God. I'm obliged to believe in God whether or not I really do believe in God. Why do you think this obligation to believe in God would stop just because you stopped believing in God? I know, it sounds silly. It sounds silly to me too.

I haven’t found that at all. I would imagine more who have a belief in God haven’t found that either.

Do you believe that an omnipotent God can reveal himself such that none could deny, such that none could doubt, such that all would bow down on their knees to Him? Would you say that this type of unequivocal undeniable revelation by an omnipotent God would be sufficient? He hasn't done that. How could you be so oblivious to the world to not be aware of that?

I never know how to answer that since once I started looking I found it easy.

Only you said you came to believe in God first. Now you're saying that you looked for God first, and then you found him. Let me ask you another baiting question, do you believe in the floating purple dragon I have in my backyard? He too expects that you'll believe in him and worship him. If you come look for him, surely you will find him.

[pageroks]

Let me ask you another baiting question

Nope. I don't have any problem discussing my faith or even lack there of to anyone but I don't need to sit and be insulted or patrinized by strangers. I have family for that. If you want any further info on me you can search my posts and get what you need from those.

[BadBadBad]

Nope. I don't have any problem discussing my faith or even lack there of to anyone but I don't need to sit and be insulted or patrinized by strangers. I have family for that. If you want any further info on me you can search my posts and get what you need from those.

I'm not patronizing or insulting you. I just think what you have to say about religion is irrational and nonsensical, and I'm pointing that out to you. That's not an insult to you, by the way, that what you have to say about religion is ridiculous. It may be an appeal to emotion, more likely argumentum ad absurdum, but it's not ad homenim. I'm not even really criticizing what you have to say personally. What I have to say is about Christianity in general. You're taking it way too personally.

Poor poor poor victim NBTB. You see that's not an insult either. It's a criticism of this running ad homenim you've had towards what I've had to say. I'm a troll baiting victims down to my lair under my dark bridge. I'm a trouble maker. I'm insulting and patronizing. I'm equivalent to your nasty family, and I'm not worthy of any further contact. This is a familiar tactic used by Christians as a rebuttal to criticisms of their beliefs on Christianity. I don't take that as a personal insult either. I take that as the weakest form of rebuttal. Walking off in a huff with a flurry of ad homenim is just an admission that you have no rebuttal and that your beliefs on Christianity are irrational and ridiculous. It's been nice chatting with you though.

Have a nice day!

[Lanakila]

This is the apologetics forum and so far everyone has been pretty tame considering the no rules. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

[gomichan]

This is a familiar tactic used by Christians as a rebuttal to criticisms of their beliefs on Christianity.

It's actually a familiar tactic used by anyone who feels they're being mocked. Your tone is pretty mocking. I see people take the same mocking tone on other topics and get the same offended reaction. It's not restricted to religious topics. I've seen attitudes like yours cause huffy exits like NBTB's on anime fandom boards, art discussion boards, people's livejournals, etcetera.

In other words, just cuz you pissed someone off doesn't mean you're right. :mrgreen:

Why don't you try working from the idea that the people you're talking to are fully cognizant adults who have reasons for their beliefs, rather than treating them like idiot children who are parroting what another idiot child told them? You may still find flaws in their reasons, but I think you'll find they're much more pleasant about discussing them.

[gomichan]

Oops, I missed that you had responded to me back here. Sometimes the forum software marks a topic as read when I haven't read it, so I miss posts.

If God believes that playing baseball is our best potential, why do you think he'd reveal baseball to us in such a way that no one knows whether we're playing baseball as compared to soccer?



I don't believe that God exists at all. However I have read significant parts of the Bible, and it's obvious to me that this is exactly what it says. In addition, my objection to Christianity is based not upon what the Bible says, but in how I experience religion through those that practice it.

Do you believe that God intends for us to play T-ball? In other words do you believe that God defines our best purpose as believing in and worshiping God? Also, the point I'm making is that what you know about God is fallible, and you accept it with a mixture of faith and reason. If you experienced God first hand, as shown many times in the Bible, would you still want to hold on to your current fallible understanding and to your current lifestyle that's based on that understanding? What if he told you that in fact, your best purpose in life is the pass a test on T-ball rules?

You've got a lot of 'what ifs' here, and they don't all address the same hypothetical. You seem to be asking, 'What if God wants something other than what you think God wants?' -- is that what you're saying? My T-ball analogy was only meant to show that in God's eyes we're all children, we can't possibly be perfect, and God's okay with that. If, hypothetically, I were to somehow 'find out for sure' that God wants us to be perfect even though that's impossible, I would doubt the source of the information. If my knowelge were total and certain, I would conclude I was having a schizophrenic break.

It really seems to me that what you're trying to come around to here is, "What if God's a bad guy?" Is that what you're asking?

[BadBadBad]

It's actually a familiar tactic used by anyone who feels they're being mocked. Your tone is pretty mocking. I see people take the same mocking tone on other topics and get the same offended reaction. It's not restricted to religious topics. I've seen attitudes like yours cause huffy exits like NBTB's on anime fandom boards, art discussion boards, people's livejournals, etcetera.

In other words, just cuz you pissed someone off doesn't mean you're right. :mrgreen:

She started accusing me of being a troll trying to bait victims down to under my dark bridge in her first response to me.

Why don't you try working from the idea that the people you're talking to are fully cognizant adults who have reasons for their beliefs, rather than treating them like idiot children who are parroting what another idiot child told them? You may still find flaws in their reasons, but I think you'll find they're much more pleasant about discussing them.

We're talking about supposed fully cognizant adults that are having personal relationships with imaginary friends. Idiot is a word you threw in there, I didn't. In that their imaginary friends don't exist, it's obvious to me they are doing exactly what you've said. As an atheist, my point of view is necessarily that they are just parroting what some other ignorant person has told them. I don't expect that stating these points of view to Christians is going to be a pleasant experience for them, nor frankly do I care if it is. I can assure you it hasn't been a lifetime of pleasant experience for them to express their point of view to me. Perhaps if they would just stop doing that, perhaps I could go back to just being apathetic about religion.

I'm not going to sugar coat my opinions to accommodate Christian sensibilities, nor am I going to keep my opinions to myself. I could do that IRL, and because of the animosity expressing my atheistic opinion generates, I do that here on the Internet, not IRL. If Christians aren't prepared to be exposed to frank criticism of their beliefs, and if they can't take that criticism without taking it personally, they shouldn't seek out religious debate on the Internet.

[BadBadBad]

It really seems to me that what you're trying to come around to here is, "What if God's a bad guy?" Is that what you're asking?

No, I think it's more general than that. Assuming God exists, what if your understanding of God is completely off base? Would you still have faith in the men that so fallibly attempted to define God or would you want to know about God in reality?

[seebs]

We're talking about supposed fully cognizant adults that are having personal relationships with imaginary friends.

Sure, just like we're talking about supposed fully cognizant adults that are ignoring someone who's right there!

As an atheist, my point of view is necessarily that they are just parroting what some other ignorant person has told them.

Really?

So, you don't think it's possible for any human, ever, to independently come up with such beliefs?

I don't expect that stating these points of view to Christians is going to be a pleasant experience for them, nor frankly do I care if it is. I can assure you it hasn't been a lifetime of pleasant experience for them to express their point of view to me. Perhaps if they would just stop doing that, perhaps I could go back to just being apathetic about religion.

I have not generally found that it is ever useful to not care about how your actions affect people. It's a shortcut, but it's not a shortcut anywhere useful.

I'm not going to sugar coat my opinions to accommodate Christian sensibilities, nor am I going to keep my opinions to myself. I could do that IRL, and because of the animosity expressing my atheistic opinion generates, I do that here on the Internet, not IRL. If Christians aren't prepared to be exposed to frank criticism of their beliefs, and if they can't take that criticism without taking it personally, they shouldn't seek out religious debate on the Internet.

I pretty much agree.

That said, I think you'd get more useful responses if you were a bit more open to the possibility that Christians you meet will not always match your preconceptions. Never got that treatment from them? Well, if it sucks, why would you do it to anyone else?

[BadBadBad]

Sure, just like we're talking about supposed fully cognizant adults that are ignoring someone who's right there!

Where? I don't see him!

Really?

So, you don't think it's possible for any human, ever, to independently come up with such beliefs?


No, they all parrot the story a few anonymous men made up thousands of years ago. The only independent original beliefs are just imaginative additions to the story. That's the history we have of Christianity. Outside of Christianity, the imagination of humanity is wide open. Personally, I kind of like the idea of my floating purple dragon in my back yard. Seek and you shall find!

I have not generally found that it is ever useful to not care about how your actions affect people. It's a shortcut, but it's not a shortcut anywhere useful.


If Rosa Parks had cared about the gentle sensibilities of racist white folks, what do you think our country would be like now? That's a pretty ridiculous statement you just made. Just think how many human negotiations you'd have to give in on if you worried too much about what other people thought? Shortcutting other people's feelings is frequently the only way to even get your feelings heard at all.

That said, I think you'd get more useful responses if you were a bit more open to the possibility that Christians you meet will not always match your preconceptions. Never got that treatment from them? Well, if it sucks, why would you do it to anyone else?

Christians are mistaken on the existence of gods. Therefore they only imagine a god exists. I've never met a Christian that does not always match that preconception. My experience has been that I've been told I'm going straight to hell, that I deserve it, that I'll never be respected, that I'll be shunned from now on, that I'm really a Bad Bad Bad person. I don't do that to anyone, and I never will. Not that my beliefs are those things but that I am personally those things. Thankfully, I can deal with other people much more reasonably as an atheist.

[Captain Yesterday]

Really?

So, you don't think it's possible for any human, ever, to independently come up with such beliefs?

I would stake any amount of money that if you could take a billion billion people, never having been exposed to any of humanity's religious myths at all, that not a single one would independently come up with any specific monotheistic religion. Maybe a few similarities, but that's all.

"religion is a plagiarism of a plagiarism of a hearsay of a hearsay, of an illusion of an illusion, extending all the way back to a fabrication of a few nonevents."

On the positive side, I love Bad's avatar :) Had to save that one for my own future use.

[gomichan]

Well, BBB, here's the deal: I have quite a number of atheist friends who are perfectly capable of disagreeing with me and offering honest criticism of my faith without being jerks. So I think I'll stick to talking to them and leave you alone. Maybe we can talk again when you're okay with respecting people you disagree with.

[Abiel]

...I guess there is no point in saying at this point that having met him, the strain of belief has been removed and replaced by depth of knowledge. My friend most definitely not imaginary.

[BadBadBad]

Well, BBB, here's the deal: I have quite a number of atheist friends who are perfectly capable of disagreeing with me and offering honest criticism of my faith without being jerks. So I think I'll stick to talking to them and leave you alone. Maybe we can talk again when you're okay with respecting people you disagree with.

You know Gomichan, for two people that have had very little to say to me except ad hominem and insults this sounds quite a bit of pot kettle black. I've had a lot more to say to you and NBTB besides that.

[BadBadBad]

...I guess there is no point in saying at this point that having met him, the strain of belief has been removed and replaced by depth of knowledge. My friend most definitely not imaginary.

Well, that's something I've been asking in this thread, and if we can get to that, instead of having to wade through all this ad homenim instead, perhaps we could get somewhere in this thread.

I thought I had a number of legitimate and serious questions on the table relating to the OP. This is one of them. If God is shown to not exist, what would you conclude as to this personal relationship with God that is so real to you now? If this personal relationship is so real now, would it cease to exist if God does not exist?

[Abiel]

Well, that's something I've been asking in this thread, and if we can get to that, instead of having to wade through all this ad homenim instead, perhaps we could get somewhere in this thread.

I thought I had a number of legitimate and serious questions on the table relating to the OP. This is one of them. If God is shown to not exist, what would you conclude as to this personal relationship with God that is so real to you now? If this personal relationship is so real now, would it cease to exist if God does not exist?

Hmm. Well, it's kind of hard to say. Given I claim I have seen Jesus aka God, if He were then proved to not exist, I would either have to reject my 'vision' as some kind of insanity, or stick with it in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Either way I end up as mad as a hat.

However I believe I could still follow Jesus' way, even if he's dead. Plenty of other religions are based on the teachings of dead people.

I would struggle with being bonkers though

[praying]

If God is shown to not exist, what would you conclude as to this personal relationship with God that is so real to you now? If this personal relationship is so real now, would it cease to exist if God does not exist?


Interesting question. I think it would probably take the same track as any failed relationship with a significant other when you thought one thing that turned out to be entirely different in reality. I suspect I and most others would go through a period of denial, then grief and then simply moving on with life less that portion that was formerly so important.

Would that stop me or others from living up to Jesus' ideals that I doubt.

[BadBadBad]

Hmm. Well, it's kind of hard to say. Given I claim I have seen Jesus aka God, if He were then proved to not exist, I would either have to reject my 'vision' as some kind of insanity, or stick with it in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Either way I end up as mad as a hat.

Whether or not God exists, how do you contrast experiences with the supernatural with any sort of rationality? It seems to me that you should necessarily reject such a vision as some type of insanity. For example there was a lady in Texas, Deanna Laney, who had such a supernatural experience with God, and she then chased her two sons down in the yard and bashed their brains in with a rock because God told her to do it.

When I ask anyone about this story, either atheist or Christian, I'm told unequivocally that she should have seen a psychiatrist immediately at the first signs of these obviously psychotic visions. How do you rationalize between a good vision being sane and a bad vision being insane? I didn't think insanity worked that way, that is good vision sane, bad vision insane. How do you tell if a supernatural vision is real? I would expect that the first thing you might do is see a psychiatrist to see if some drugs and counseling might help. That's what every one said about Deanna Laney anyway.


However I believe I could still follow Jesus' way, even if he's dead. Plenty of other religions are based on the teachings of dead people.

I responded to you earlier on this. Where does a dead guy lead you? He certainly doesn't lead you to God if God doesn't exist. Plus you don't have Jesus to follow anyway. What you have is a couple of anonymous stories written by men that were obviously way off base about Jesus if God doesn't exist. Why follow Jesus? Why follow just Jesus? Is there any good thing that Jesus supposedly taught, outside of God, that is even original?

I would struggle with being bonkers though

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps you should struggle with that now? I was told that pretty adamantly about Deanna Laney.

[BadBadBad]

Interesting question. I think it would probably take the same track as any failed relationship with a significant other when you thought one thing that turned out to be entirely different in reality. I suspect I and most others would go through a period of denial, then grief and then simply moving on with life less that portion that was formerly so important.

Only, I've been told the personal relationship with God is so real, it's the one certainty a Christian can offer as evidence of God. To accept the OP hypothetical, you have to accept the possibility that God is not real and that your relationship with Jesus is just imagination or even insanity. A relationship with an omnipotent God is so real to you that you base your life around it is shown to you as being just imagination. What do you do with that?

Would that stop me or others from living up to Jesus' ideals that I doubt.

If God is shown to be non-existent, how would you determine if these ideals have anything to do with Jesus?

[Abiel]

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps you should struggle with that now? I was told that pretty adamantly about Deanna Laney.

Well I am blessed that in real life people find me all things from a bit odd, rather quaint, or eccentric. I haven't physically harmed anyone yet.

Check out my blog (address on my profile page) if you are interested in how mad I am.

[praying]

Only, I've been told the personal relationship with God is so real, it's the one certainty a Christian can offer as evidence of God. To accept the OP hypothetical, you have to accept the possibility that God is not real and that your relationship with Jesus is just imagination or even insanity. A relationship with an omnipotent God is so real to you that you base your life around it is shown to you as being just imagination. What do you do with that?

I don't have an answer other than what I gave.



If God is shown to be non-existent, how would you determine if these ideals have anything to do with Jesus?

That wouldn't matter if the ideals are worthy they will stand on their own.

[BadBadBad]

However I believe I could still follow Jesus' way, even if he's dead. Plenty of other religions are based on the teachings of dead people.

I know you've said you've had a personal experience with an omnipotent god. That might make this next hypothetical a moot point for you, but it's one of the questions I have on the table, and I'd still like to discuss with anyone who can offer something other than ad homenim in response.

If God appeared to you and told you that every thing you thought you knew about God was wrong, would you want to know about God in reality, or would you still have faith in men that told you otherwise?

How did your experience with God go? Did he tell you anything about himself? Did he just give you a feeling that you were right about him all along? Did you guys have a long chat? If so, what do you know about God as compared to what do you believe about God through faith in men?

[BadBadBad]

Well I am blessed that in real life people find me all things from a bit odd, rather quaint, or eccentric. I haven't physically harmed anyone yet.

Check out my blog (address on my profile page) if you are interested in how mad I am.

I'm not accusing you of being insane. I believe you were the one that brought it up, but it's a good point. The point is that to consider the hypothetical, you have to consider that your visions were not real. If these fantastic visions you experienced were shown to not be real, how would that change your life? That is my interpretation of the OP.

You haven't physically harmed anyone. Deanna Laney hadn't harmed anyone yet when she started having visions. Yet the visions of God were so powerful and real that it changed her perception of right and wrong. I'm not accusing you of being as insane as Deanna Laney. I'm just trying to understand this concept of supernatural visions and differentiate them from insanity or imagination. How does the goodness of the vision fit into this differentiation? How does a bad vision perhaps indicate psychosis? Why should I keep an open mind that a good vision might be something else? If it's an omnipotent omni-benevolent God that I'm envisioning, how do I differentiate good from bad?

[BadBadBad]

I don't have an answer other than what I gave.

I didn't quite follow what you said earlier, and now I think I get it. I think you were saying something about perhaps your perception of a personal relationship with a woman for example. If you were misled that for example a woman loved you, if you found out later that she didn't, you'd just move on. I think that could be very revealing about personal relationships about God.

In my relationships with women, I imagine aspects of our personal relationship. I have a perception of her feelings towards me. Some of that is based upon evidence, and I recognize that part of that perception could just be imagined. The evidence is physical. How she looks at me, what she says and does, what I see, feel and hear. In a personal relationship with Jesus and these two parts of perception, there is no evidence. Can you recognize that all that's left is imagination? If not, how would you differentiate your personal relationship with God from imagination?

That wouldn't matter if the ideals are worthy they will stand on their own.

Without the authority of God almighty, what's so special about Jesus Christ? In fact which of his ideals are even original and uniquely attributed to Jesus now and throughout history?

[UberLutheran]

It really wouldn't change a thing.

I believe Jesus is the human incarnation of God; but even if it turned out God didn't exist Jesus is an excellent example to follow and I'd still follow His examples of how to live and how to treat others.

[Abiel]

If God appeared to you and told you that every thing you thought you knew about God was wrong, would you want to know about God in reality, or would you still have faith in men that told you otherwise?


red pill or blue pill? I hope I would have the courage to go for red.

[Abiel]

I know you've said you've had a personal experience with an omnipotent god. That might make this next hypothetical a moot point for you, but it's one of the questions I have on the table, and I'd still like to discuss with anyone who can offer something other than ad homenim in response.

If God appeared to you and told you that every thing you thought you knew about God was wrong, would you want to know about God in reality, or would you still have faith in men that told you otherwise?

How did your experience with God go? Did he tell you anything about himself? Did he just give you a feeling that you were right about him all along? Did you guys have a long chat? If so, what do you know about God as compared to what do you believe about God through faith in men?

Directly from my blog:

Yesterday evening I went to a rehearsal for our town passion play. I'm Mary Magdalene (or as 11 yr old son says 'you're the demented one'!) So anyway, we were doing our thing. Me and another Mary were running away from the angel to tell the disciples- and there was Jesus all ressurrected. We did our thing. My stage direction says 'She grabs his feet' . So I did. A hand came upon my head. I looked up. Julian wasn't there. Jesus was. It was Jesus' hand, it was Jesus' face, it was Jesus' eyes. I know it. It was him. I had an encounter with Jesus right there. Not metaphorically, not imaginatively, really. Everything is changed. Nothing is the same. Everything else is rubbish. There is only him. I don't quite know what this means for tomorrow, but for today I have seen his heart of compassion, I have felt the depths of his love. At a cellular level, I feel different. Everything we have talked about over the years here have been leading me to this moment and I just want to treasure it for ever and ever amen.

nothing dramatic. And it has tinkered somewhat with my orthodoxy, such as it was.

[BadBadBad]

red pill or blue pill? I hope I would have the courage to go for red.

Which one is red? Faith or reality?

[BadBadBad]

A hand came upon my head. I looked up. Julian wasn't there. Jesus was. It was Jesus' hand, it was Jesus' face, it was Jesus' eyes. I know it. It was him. I had an encounter with Jesus right there. Not metaphorically, not imaginatively, really. Everything is changed. Nothing is the same. Everything else is rubbish. There is only him. I don't quite know what this means for tomorrow, but for today I have seen his heart of compassion, I have felt the depths of his love. At a cellular level, I feel different. Everything we have talked about over the years here have been leading me to this moment and I just want to treasure it for ever and ever amen.

What did you learn about Jesus that day? What do you know, and what must you still take on faith?

How would you differentiate this experience from Deanna Laney's experience with God? People assure me that Deanna Laney experienced a psychotic vision. How would you differentiate your experience from that?

nothing dramatic. And it has tinkered somewhat with my orthodoxy, such as it was.

Ho hum. Just another day at the office, only today I met Jesus Christ!

[BadBadBad]

It really wouldn't change a thing.

I believe Jesus is the human incarnation of God; but even if it turned out God didn't exist Jesus is an excellent example to follow and I'd still follow His examples of how to live and how to treat others.

Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

[BadBadBad]

It really wouldn't change a thing.

I believe Jesus is the human incarnation of God; but even if it turned out God didn't exist Jesus is an excellent example to follow and I'd still follow His examples of how to live and how to treat others.

And for the other part of the OP, if God were presented to you as a burning washing machine, would you want to know about God or would you prefer to know God only through faith in fallible men?

[praying]

And for the other part of the OP, if God were presented to you as a burning washing machine, would you want to know about God or would you prefer to know God only through faith in fallible men?

Maybe I missed it but what about you , waht if God was proven to be an absolute.

[BadBadBad]

Maybe I missed it but what about you , waht if God was proven to be an absolute.

I would have even more reasons to reject any obligation, duty, or allegiance to ignorant men to accept their fallible stories about God on faith. I'd want to know about God in reality.