Christianity: Theocentric or Humanocentric?

[ksen]

Your thoughts?

Personally I think that Christianity is all about God and should be centered around Him.

[stumpjumper]

How about Christocentric which combines a little bit of both ;)

[seebs]

Christianity is about us being centered on God, and the shocking revelation that God is in some way centered on us.

It's love. Love is other-centric.

[ksen]

Christianity is about us being centered on God, and the shocking revelation that God is in some way centered on us.

It's love. Love is other-centric.

What makes you think God is centered on us?

Why would He be?

If God is the ultimate good then wouldn't it be a flaw for Him to be centered on something less than the ultimate good?

[seebs]

What makes you think God is centered on us?

The Incarnation.

Why would He be?

I have no idea. Sometimes, by bits and pieces, I come closer to seeing in us what He does.

If God is the ultimate good then wouldn't it be a flaw for Him to be centered on something less than the ultimate good?

What is more good? A decent person who is focused on himself, or a decent person who loves a very flawed person? In a creator, focusing on self more than on the creation is a flaw. The same applies to one who loves.

I think it's easy for us to get caught up in trying to make sense of things like "ultimate good", but the fact is, they're beyond our comprehension by enough that I don't even think the yammering about them has semantic content. Theologians are often obsessed with their own cleverness to such an extent that they're afraid to just say "Well, I don't know."

So I don't know why God would center on us, but I think the Incarnation is pretty good evidence that God does. Why? I don't know. Maybe creators are just like that.

[seebs]

How about Christocentric which combines a little bit of both ;)

Isn't it formally asserted to contain all of both, or at least to be fully both?

[ksen]

What makes you think God is centered on us?

The Incarnation.

How, specifically, does the Incarnation show that God is centered on us?

Why would He be?

I have no idea. Sometimes, by bits and pieces, I come closer to seeing in us what He does.

If God is the ultimate good then wouldn't it be a flaw for Him to be centered on something less than the ultimate good?

What is more good? A decent person who is focused on himself, or a decent person who loves a very flawed person? In a creator, focusing on self more than on the creation is a flaw. The same applies to one who loves.

If God's self is perfection then it is NOT a flaw to be focused on the perfect. To not be is what I would consider the flaw.

I think it's easy for us to get caught up in trying to make sense of things like "ultimate good", but the fact is, they're beyond our comprehension by enough that I don't even think the yammering about them has semantic content. Theologians are often obsessed with their own cleverness to such an extent that they're afraid to just say "Well, I don't know."

Was Jesus "yammering about semantic content" when He said there is no one good but God?

If Jesus did say that then I CAN know that only God is good. And if only God is good then for Him to be centered on the something other than Himself would mean He'd be centered on the not good. Again, I think that would be a flaw in God.

So I don't know why God would center on us, but I think the Incarnation is pretty good evidence that God does. Why? I don't know. Maybe creators are just like that.

I'd still like to hear why you think the Incarnation proves that God is focused/centered on us.

[sparklecat]

Would both of you clarify how you're using the phrase 'centered on?' Do you mean it to be synonymous with focused on, or something else?

[ksen]

Would both of you clarify how you're using the phrase 'centered on?' Do you mean it to be synonymous with focused on, or something else?

It seems we are using the terms interchangeably.

[stumpjumper]

How about Christocentric which combines a little bit of both ;)

Isn't it formally asserted to contain all of both, or at least to be fully both?

Indeed. Haven't had my coffee yet :D

My Pastor once told a story about how in seminary on the first day of some course (maybe systematic theology I don't know) the Professor came into the class and drew a downward facing arrow, said discuss, and left the room for the remainder of the two hour course.

Her point was that the entire message of Christianity can be summed up with "God came down"...

[seebs]

How, specifically, does the Incarnation show that God is centered on us?

I can't even understand the question. God apparently believes us worth making, and worth redeeming, which is pretty strong, but then we find out that God also considers us worth becoming.

If God's self is perfection then it is NOT a flaw to be focused on the perfect. To not be is what I would consider the flaw.

Perfection is semantically null. Perfect what? A perfect Creator is very different from a perfect Egomaniac.

Was Jesus "yammering about semantic content" when He said there is no one good but God?

Nope.

But I don't think he was making the statement that modernists read into it.

If Jesus did say that then I CAN know that only God is good. And if only God is good then for Him to be centered on the something other than Himself would mean He'd be centered on the not good. Again, I think that would be a flaw in God.

Why?

Redemption is focusing on things which are not perfectly good.

If God redeems, then God must in some way focus on things which are imperfect; otherwise, there's nothing to redeem.

Love is not about perfection.

I'd still like to hear why you think the Incarnation proves that God is focused/centered on us.

Proof is not a likely outcome. We are, after all, talking about human speculation about God.

I think that the decision to become one of us testifies to a fairly significant level of interest.

We need maintenance. God doesn't. I guess, I would see self-focus as itself a flaw. Why bother? If God is perfect, there's no need.

God is love. Love is not self-focused. It's not just that we should love God, who is special and unlike other things; we should love all sorts of things, not because they are perfect, but because there is something in them worth loving. The essence of love is focus on something other than the self.

[stumpjumper]

Does not loving someone mean that you are in someway centered on that person or thing?

"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son..."

"God loved us while we were yet sinners...."

[ksen]

How, specifically, does the Incarnation show that God is centered on us?

I can't even understand the question. God apparently believes us worth making, and worth redeeming, which is pretty strong, but then we find out that God also considers us worth becoming.

But you are assuming that God did those things because of some worth within us.

I maintain He did those things for us because of the worth that is in Him.

The Bible tells us that we (Christians) don't even live by our own faith but instead live by the faith OF Christ (not our faith IN Christ).

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Gal 2:16 (KJV)

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: - Phl 3:9 (KJV)

If God's self is perfection then it is NOT a flaw to be focused on the perfect. To not be is what I would consider the flaw.

Perfection is semantically null. Perfect what? A perfect Creator is very different from a perfect Egomaniac.[/quote]

God is complete. He needs nothing. He is self-sufficient in every way and dependent on nothing for His existence.

Look up the Aseity of God.

Was Jesus "yammering about semantic content" when He said there is no one good but God?

Nope.

But I don't think he was making the statement that modernists read into it.

LOL, I think that's the first time I've been called a modernist. :lol:

If Jesus did say that then I CAN know that only God is good. And if only God is good then for Him to be centered on the something other than Himself would mean He'd be centered on the not good. Again, I think that would be a flaw in God.

Why?

Redemption is focusing on things which are not perfectly good.

I think sparklecat is right and we need to get our terms straight before we continue too much further re: focused and centered.

If God redeems, then God must in some way focus on things which are imperfect; otherwise, there's nothing to redeem.

He says that He redeems people for His own name's sake.

Love is not about perfection.

God's love and mercy make it possible for us to have a relationship with the perfect.

I'd still like to hear why you think the Incarnation proves that God is focused/centered on us.

Proof is not a likely outcome. We are, after all, talking about human speculation about God.

I think that the decision to become one of us testifies to a fairly significant level of interest.

Interest does not equate to cenetered on.

We need maintenance. God doesn't. I guess, I would see self-focus as itself a flaw. Why bother? If God is perfect, there's no need.

I don't understand what you mean here. No need for what?

God is love. Love is not self-focused. It's not just that we should love God, who is special and unlike other things; we should love all sorts of things, not because they are perfect, but because there is something in them worth loving. The essence of love is focus on something other than the self.

If there is something worth loving in us, which I'm not conceding yet, might it be that spark of life that came from God Himself?

[stumpjumper]

But you are assuming that God did those things because of some worth within us.

I don't see how saying God is centered upon, or loves His creation, necessarily implies that the love of God towards creation is because of some worth that we bring to the table.

I know of no Lutheran theology that would imply that because of something within ourself we become worthy of God's love.

Yet, Lutherans also stress the paradox of worshipping as Christ centered individuals within the earthly realm and looking towards the cross that is both human and divine and a symbol for what God has done for us simply because of God's self-sacrificing love for creation...

[CaDan]

Give him some air! He's gone all Platonic! ;)

[ksen]

But you are assuming that God did those things because of some worth within us.

I don't see how saying God is centered upon, or loves His creation, necessarily implies that the love of God towards creation is because of some worth that we bring to the table.

I'm just reacting to this statement by seebs:

. . . .because there is something in them worth loving. . .

[ksen]

Give him some air! He's gone all Platonic! ;)

Which is sweeter?

Air, or the idea of Air? :twisted:

[stumpjumper]

I'm just reacting to this statement by seebs:

. . . .because there is something in them worth loving. . .

Well we do know that the Bible states that God loves (d) us while we were yet sinners so there must be a reason why God loves His creation.

Anything "within" us still comes from God even if it is just the ability to accept God's love and grace with thanksgiving...

I would bet we have slightly different models of God's relationship with the world, though. I tend to follow a more pan-en-theistic perspective (Rahner would actually say the world is evolving towards a pan-en-theistic perspective). Anyway, that sort of view would posit a relationship in which the worth that is within is the self-communication of God and the existence of God's grace...

[Joykins]

Your thoughts?

Personally I think that Christianity is all about God and should be centered around Him.

If it's all about God only then it has nothing for us.

If it's all about us then it has nothing for God.

I suggest a balance.

[BigToe]

I think it being about God makes it about others.

[seebs]

But you are assuming that God did those things because of some worth within us.

I maintain He did those things for us because of the worth that is in Him.

I don't think it makes any difference.

God is clearly centered on us. Whether God is centered on us because we're good, or because God is good, does not change that fact.

I tend to agree that God is centered on us due to God's nature more than due to ours.

God is complete. He needs nothing. He is self-sufficient in every way and dependent on nothing for His existence.

This may be, but it seems to me that it is impossible to love without something to love.

LOL, I think that's the first time I've been called a modernist. :lol:

Pretty much all Western Christians today use a modernist worldview. If you're using post-Enlightenment understandings of truth, and formal analysis of God's nature, that's modernist.

We need maintenance. God doesn't. I guess, I would see self-focus as itself a flaw. Why bother? If God is perfect, there's no need.

I don't understand what you mean here. No need for what?

No need for God to focus on God. I mean, God's fine. Nothing to do there.

As you say, God doesn't need anything. So why would God put effort into correcting, or nuturing, God? God doesn't need it.

If there is something worth loving in us, which I'm not conceding yet, might it be that spark of life that came from God Himself?

What does worth have to do with love?

That said, I pretty much agree that it is because of God that we are worth loving. Nonetheless, it is us that God loves. God has devoted considerable energy and attention to our wellbeing; we have no evidence that God does anything for God. Indeed, such a thing would make no sense. What needs is God going to be addressing by doing things for God? None.

IMHO, having-no-needs isn't merely compatible with being focused or centered on others; it pretty much logically implies it.