Is P_G Really a Cult Leader?

[BelindaP]

The accusation has been leveled that P_G is a cult leader and the Nehemiah Center is a cult. This seems to me to be an unfair characterization. Below are a list of characteristics of a cult. I don't see how any of these apply to either P_G or the Nehemiah center.

1. Control over the smallest details of life
2. Double standards
3. Takes license with God's word
4. Loyalty to group replaces loyalty to Christ
5. Separation of members from family/friends
6. Focus on an imagined enemy
7. Rules are kept secret
8. Mystical altered states are emphasized
9. Leaders are prideful and unteachable
10. Require excessive tithing or giving
11. Curses and threats used on those who try to leave
12. Leaders are often promiscuous and/or violate sexual mores

[Crazy Liz]

I'm not sure where you got that list. I don't know very much about the Nehemiah Center, other than what's on their website, what I've seen on some MySpace pages & the behavior I've seen at CF.

Is it REALLY a cult? I don't know. But I think I've seen more than one of the behaviors on your list displayed by members of Nehemiah Center's leadership. I don't know if they behave the same way in their church as they do at CF. I would say much of the list applies to CF staff.

P_G's actions at CF do not in any way counter any of the above, with perhaps a couple of exceptions. I've never been at a high enough level of CF secrecy to know about some of them. However, I'm pretty sure P_G is the main mover in implementing #7 at CF.

[TomUK]

This isn't levelled at you belinda, but i find the treatment which receives at some members of this forum is utterly despicable. I significantly disagree with PG on quite a few issues but some people here seem determined to show him as the anti-christ.

I don't know where that list came from but i agree but agree that PG fails to meet every single standard.

Please, give him a break. We are still all Christians.

[BelindaP]

While the applicability of some of them wrt to CF could be argued, I'm specifically talking about the Nehemiah center. From what I've seen the Nehemiah center doesn't try to control the minutest parts of members' lives, nor do the leadership set a double-standard for behavior. They don't take license with the scriptures that I can see. [I will admit that the interpretation is very conservative, but not a lot more so than many churches.]

Christ, of course, is the center of worship, not the leaders. And they go out of their way to strengthen family ties. They don't try to separate people from their families that I can see. They haven't drummed up a particular enemy to hate (although they do get a bit knee-jerk about perceived anti-semitism). Also, the rules for the center aren't secret. In fact, their statement of faith is right there on the website.

I also know that they don't take up offerings during services or require a certain level of giving of members. And, I would be extremely shocked to find out that P_G or any of the other leaders at the center engaged in any kind of extra-marital sexual activity.

[BelindaP]

This isn't levelled at you belinda, but i find the treatment which receives at some members of this forum is utterly despicable. I significantly disagree with PG on quite a few issues but some people here seem determined to show him as the anti-christ.

I don't know where that list came from but i agree but agree that PG fails to meet every single standard.

Please, give him a break. We are still all Christians.

That was my whole point in bringing up this thread. Rather than let an accusation like that pass by, I thought I would bring it up for rational discussion. In the light of day, it doesn't seem like a valid accusation.

People are welcome to start their own thread about whether CF is a cult. This one is specifically about P_G and the Nehemiah center.

[TomUK]

I am superb at missing the point!

[Tears of Ash]

Please, give him a break. We are still all Christians.

The devil is the king of lies. He'll make it look appeasing and he'll make you want it. Remember, even the devil can quote scripture. *yawn*


Not saying that anyone is a not a Christian, but to be on your guard sometimes. Sometimes a person make talk the talk, but not walk the walk...

[BelindaP]

That is where the spiritual gift of Discernment comes in handy.

[Crazy Liz]

While the applicability of some of them wrt to CF could be argued, I'm specifically talking about the Nehemiah center. From what I've seen the Nehemiah center doesn't try to control the minutest parts of members' lives, nor do the leadership set a double-standard for behavior. They don't take license with the scriptures that I can see. [I will admit that the interpretation is very conservative, but not a lot more so than many churches.]

Christ, of course, is the center of worship, not the leaders. And they go out of their way to strengthen family ties. They don't try to separate people from their families that I can see. They haven't drummed up a particular enemy to hate (although they do get a bit knee-jerk about perceived anti-semitism). Also, the rules for the center aren't secret. In fact, their statement of faith is right there on the website.

I also know that they don't take up offerings during services or require a certain level of giving of members. And, I would be extremely shocked to find out that P_G or any of the other leaders at the center engaged in any kind of extra-marital sexual activity.

The thread title you chose asked specifically about P_G himself. I have no clue about his sex life & don't care to investigate it. However, his management style, as observed on CF does resemble most of the listed characteristics. Does someone have to know whether Nehemiah Center is a cult to know whether P_G has a frightening number of characteristics of a cult leader?

[BelindaP]

Which ones do you think he personally exhibits? Which ones are a function of the structure of CF staff?

[Texas Lynn]

I don't know enough about the so-called Neahmiah Center or PG to say. Both appear to be people/institutions which, if a loved one of ours was involved with either, we would urge them to run, don't walk, away from. Such things however are not only cults. Sometimes they're just assholes.

Put it this way: if people try to leave and burly guys block them it's a cult. If people try to leave and they just say "if you leave you will be damned to hay-all" but no physical force is used, they're just assholes.

[pdudgeon]

part of the problem here is that only a handful of people know about the inner workings of either CF or the Nehimiah Center, and thus could comment with authority on your question. As outsiders we could say that roughly half of the characerisitcs have been exhibited.

[BelindaP]

Which ones? And by whom?

[Tonks]

The accusation has been leveled that P_G is a cult leader and the Nehemiah Center is a cult. This seems to me to be an unfair characterization. Below are a list of characteristics of a cult. I don't see how any of these apply to either P_G or the Nehemiah center.

1. Control over the smallest details of life

This could describe any number of ministers, denominations, whatever whether they are Christian or not. PG has never had control over any of the things in my life so I'd have to non-concur.

2. Double standards

Again, I'm not sure that I personally see evidence of this. We all have our biases - particularly of the denominational bent. As such, I have no non-concur.

3. Takes license with God's word

Welcome to theology. I think that 90% of the folks out there take license with God's word and I don't think that all of it is malicious. As a matter of fact when his church's statement of faith was recently posted on CF he took the time to answer it point by point several times when questions were brought up. As such, I non-concur.

4. Loyalty to group replaces loyalty to Christ

We're all guilty of this from time to time. In many senses, loyalty to whichever group one corporately worships with is a good analog to loyalty to Christ. Non-concur.

5. Separation of members from family/friends

No evidence of this at all. His dad is a CF member so I'd say I'd have to non-concur.

6. Focus on an imagined enemy

I see a focus on those who spend too much time obsessing over whether or not he a cult leader or runs some sort of playhouse. Non-concur.

7. Rules are kept secret

Funny, you seem to know all the rules that I do. Non-concur.

8. Mystical altered states are emphasized

The proper employ of "mystical states" has been a hallmark of Christianity since the earliest days. As it specifically applies to the subject at hand, I can't say that I've ever even seen a discussion of it. Non-concur.

9. Leaders are prideful and unteachable

Again, non-concur. 1) your lack of concrete examples and 2) my direct experience in opposition would seem to indicate otherwise.

10. Require excessive tithing or giving

Welcome to Christianity. Non-concur. I've never given him a penny.

11. Curses and threats used on those who try to leave

Considering folks like to accuse PG of forcing people out it would seem that he has no problem with folks leaving....particuarly as most folks that have left lately have been of the conversative bent...you know, the ones that are supposed to be his flag carriers. Non-concur

12. Leaders are often promiscuous and/or violate sexual mores

Non-concur based on lack of evidence. Further, his boudoir activities are none of my business.

----

This relentless focus on PG is getting to the scary obsessive level. It's almost like PG is your very own McGuffin.

[BelindaP]

Are your comments aimed at me, or somebody else. I've explained why I started the thread.

[Br. Max]

This isn't levelled at you belinda, but i find the treatment which receives at some members of this forum is utterly despicable. I significantly disagree with PG on quite a few issues but some people here seem determined to show him as the anti-christ.

I don't know where that list came from but i agree but agree that PG fails to meet every single standard.

Please, give him a break. We are still all Christians.Anti-Christ? I would not give him that much credit. He's running a standard "cult of personality" and demonstrates some of the characteristics of a cult leader.

[Br. Max]

Cult leaders tend to be charismatic, authoritarian, power hungry, paranoid, a user of others to fulfill their goals, manipulative, claim special knowledge, and claim to have the monopoly on the truth.

[BelindaP]

Evidence?

[Br. Max]

DO you agree that PG can be very charismatic?

[BelindaP]

I'll give you that one.

[JeffreyLloyd]

DO you agree that PG can be very charismatic?

He is very charismatic and charming. So is my Grandpa who is the deacon at my old Baptist church. That alone means nothing. P_G and I are very far apart theologically but I love to talk with him about faith because he is not condescending and he is open to hearing what the Catholic Church teaches.

I've talked with Pastor George about this subject a few times. I'm sure he won't mind me sharing this with you. This is straight from Pastor George.

1 WE do not solicit members nor to we really want members this is a teaching ministry - come be blessed!

2 I have never given a sermon on tithing, asked for money from the pulpit nor held a fund raiser.

3 We do have a table with some tapes and T-shirts and such the price is what ever you want to pay and if you have nothing please take it anyway and be blessed G-d will provide.

4 I encourage you to search the scriptures for yourself. In fact please listen to other teachers and GO to other churches. Learn as much about G-d as you can and get as close to him as you can. I am a man and I am flawed please don't trust in me - trust in G-d.

5 I encourage you to get out of the 4 walls and help somebody, feed them, clothe them, pray with them why are you listening to me when there is some one you could help?

Nehemiah Center is broke we have a total treasury of $600 and yet we are rich because of all the people that can say that this tiny church helped them and loved them.

People come here and want to be a part because it is different because the spirit is different. You know I told my church ladies that people said we were a cult and they just laughed and laughed.

As a cult leader I am a terrible failure.

[drstevej]

I do not consider P_G a cult leader or the Nehemiah Center a cult in any sense of the word. He impresses me as a caring shepherd of his flock.

My criticism of P_G is his leadership of CF and his use of CF to promote his church.

[JeffreyLloyd]

I do not consider P_G a cult leader or the Nehemiah Center a cult in any sense of the word. He impresses me as a caring shepherd of his flock.

My criticism of P_G is his leadership of CF and his use of CF to promote his church.

Well, that was nice and unexpected Steve!

[Br. Max]

I'll give you that one.
Do you agree that he is authoritarian?

[drstevej]

Well, that was nice and unexpected Steve!

It shouldn't surprise you.

[Harpuia]

From what I've seen from P_G, he doesn't meet very many of the cult requirements.

I only know of one cult leader, The High Priest of the Church of the Painful Truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Boortz

And he's one cult I don't mind having around. :D

[drstevej]

From what I've seen from P_G, he doesn't meet very many of the cult requirements.

I only know of one cult leader, The High Priest of the Church of the Painful Truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Boortz

And he's one cult I don't mind having around. :D

Ah, the Mighty Whitie... the Rude Awakening

[Harpuia]

I think he reminds me of george78 a bit... does things solely for shock value.

[Br. Max]

NOW can we get back to the topic?

[Crazy Liz]

You know, I don't feel like turning the witch hunts around & trying to root out evil. It just doesn't work. You get sucked in. I don't really want to create a counter-system of distrust and various levels of esoteric secrets.

For about 3 years I called on CF to bring itself more and more in line with its motto of Uniting all Christians as one body. Instead of getting better, things have gotten worse. I think the fact that CF is moving in the opposite direction has been exposed, and TPTB have no intention of responding to the call. It's no shame to shake the dust off my sandals, rather than stay and fight, if engagement would mean fighting evil with evil.

[Abiel]

I do not consider P_G a cult leader or the Nehemiah Center a cult in any sense of the word. He impresses me as a caring shepherd of his flock.


agreed. He is also an engaging and interesting preacher.

[herev]

what is the point of trying to drag PG or his N_C through the mud? PG is a caring man. I have not agreed with him on all things and doctrinally, we are not that close, but he doesn't deserve this and it frankly doesn't make UC look good at all.

[Abiel]

what is the point of trying to drag PG or his N_C through the mud? PG is a caring man. I have not agreed with him on all things and doctrinally, we are not that close, but he doesn't deserve this and it frankly doesn't make UC look good at all.


indeed

[drstevej]

I think any analysis of the major problems with CF invariably deal with P_G's leadership and using CF to promote his congregation. That is my point. I wish the Nehemiah Center well (despite being disfellowshiped by the same for something I never did and without telling me they did it).

Having 50% of the voting directors of CF from one local church is ludicrous.
PG's pushing Imani for PAD was a prime example of his poor leadership and bad judgment.

CF will not improve as long as he is the power broker.

And I think Abiel understands what I am saying.

[ravenscape]

Didn't he push to get Bradford back, too?

I don't care about his flock or his church. Whatever floats their boat. I object to some of his posts, especially in the support fora, and to the policies and agenda he's backed.

[drstevej]

Didn't he push to get Bradford back, too?

I don't care about his flock or his church. Whatever floats their boat. I object to some of his posts, especially in the support fora, and to the policies and agenda he's backed.

As I recall, he was supportive because his wife has spiritually discerned that Bradford was not what others had said.

[herev]

I think any analysis of the major problems with CF invariably deal with P_G's leadership and using CF to promote his congregation. That is my point. I wish the Nehemiah Center well (despite being disfellowshiped by the same for something I never did and without telling me they did it).

Having 50% of the voting directors of CF from one local church is ludicrous.
PG's pushing Imani for PAD was a prime example of his poor leadership and bad judgment.

CF will not improve as long as he is the power broker.

And I think Abiel understands what I am saying.

and so do I. I think all of that is fair game, but this thread is a personal attack and he just doesn't deserve that--no one does.

[drstevej]

and so do I. I think all of that is fair game, but this thread is a personal attack and he just doesn't deserve that--no one does.

Just drawing some lines.

[Pippa]

P_G is a caring man, he has no extraordinary power over CF members or staff as some think he does. I have never seen him ever try to build his church membership in the time I have been at CF from the members there. [although I have seen him wrongly accused of doing that]
I have seen him though, encourage people in the faith that they are in. I think one of his statements that he uses often is "be the best ..fill in the faith yourself........... you can for God in the fellowship that He has placed you"

Yes he has sometimes made a mess of a post he has made, but would the person that has never ever done that please stand up?

To accuse him or the people that worship at the Nehemiah Centre as being in a cult with a cult leader is wrong and it is certainly not deserved, I have no doubt that they each of them there love and serve God with all their hearts and souls.

Everything that goes wrong at CF is not the fault of one man or one woman, maybe, we each of us, need to look inwards and see where we ourselves need to change first. Its easy to point the finger at someone else without first recognising that perhaps the problem needs to be changed within ourselves first.

[Br. Max]

You know what - PG may very well be a pure and honest man who is suffering from bad choices and image problems. Then again he could be satan incarnate. My money is on he is a typical "cult of personality" leader who may mean well, but can't seem to stop self promotion and agenda pushing long enough to get out of his own way.

[Pippa]

You know what - PG may very well be a pure and honest man who is suffering from bad choices and image problems. Then again he could be satan incarnate. My money is on he is a typical "cult of personality" leader who may mean well, but can't seem to stop self promotion and agenda pushing long enough to get out of his own way.

But then one could also say.... You know what - Br. Max may very well be a pure and honest man who is suffering from bad choices and image problems. Then again he could be satan incarnate. My money is on he is a typical "cult of personality" leader who may mean well, but can't seem to stop self promotion and agenda pushing long enough to get out of his own way.

Read some of the posts and comments from a lot of posters here and I see that statement could also be applied to many people the way you are using it. And I am not saying that is what I believe, but only that used the way you have it could be applied to many. Except I wont label anyone with the title satan incarnate.

[Tears of Ash]

Except I wont label anyone with the title satan incarnate.


And when you do, it will be too late. Not like it will matter to you, you'll be raptured up already.

[Br. Max]

But then one could also say.... You know what - Br. Max may very well be a pure and honest man who is suffering from bad choices and image problems. Then again he could be satan incarnate. My money is on he is a typical "cult of personality" leader who may mean well, but can't seem to stop self promotion and agenda pushing long enough to get out of his own way.

Read some of the posts and comments from a lot of posters here and I see that statement could also be applied to many people the way you are using it. And I am not saying that is what I believe, but only that used the way you have it could be applied to many. Except I wont label anyone with the title satan incarnate.hehe - thing is - I may have image problems and I may be satan incarnate for all you know - but I CERTAINLY do not have the cult of personality problem. Name one person here on CF or any other board who will defend me no matter what I say. If you find anyone - let me know.

[ToyotaCamry]

The good thing with this thread is that it has made absolutely clear that P_G is not a cult leader and that the Nehemiah Center is not a cult. This thread has been positive in that respect.

I vote we make Yiddish the official UberChristian language of swearing.

No, prefiero decir cabeza de mierda...

[Pippa]

I wasnt accusing you of anything Br. Max, in fact I have in the past stood up for you, you just didnt know that.

What I dont like to see is accusations tossed at someone that are unfounded and hurtful, these are real live human beings.. Christians just should pull down other, we should be into building up.

[drstevej]

Here's hoping 7-7-7 is the end of P_G's Playhouse at CF.

[Br. Max]

The good thing with this thread is that it has made absolutely clear that P_G is not a cult leader and that the Nehemiah Center is not a cult. This thread has been positive in that respect.



No, prefiero decir cabeza de mierda...it has? :shock: when did that happen? 3/4 of this thread is fluff and banter.

[Br. Max]

I wasnt accusing you of anything Br. Max, in fact I have in the past stood up for you, you just didnt know that.

What I dont like to see is accusations tossed at someone that are unfounded and hurtful, these are real live human beings.. Christians just should pull down other, we should be into building up. Welp, PG could come down out of his ivory tower and deal with the people who have issue with him and his rule. I have tried my very best to demonstrate and explain my position and perspective - But things tend to get muddied and distracted.

[Pippa]

And when you do, it will be too late. Not like it will matter to you, you'll be raptured up already.

What wont matter?

[Tears of Ash]

Whether P_G was the anti-christ or not. ~__~

[Br. Max]

Whether P_G was the anti-christ or not. ~__~good point

[Pippa]

Whether P_G was the anti-christ or not. ~__~

Well I know that he isnt so that isnt even a consideration. But thanks for clarifying your post for me.

[Br. Max]

Well I know that he isnt so that isnt even a consideration. But thanks for clarifying your post for me. GOD! Hi :D how are ya!! :D

[Pippa]

GOD! Hi :D how are ya!! :D

?

[Br. Max]

?Well you know the hearts of men - so you must be GOD. Right? :shock:

[Tears of Ash]

That smiley makes the atmosphere weird.

[Br. Max]

That smiley makes the atmosphere weird.Oh come on! it's one of the few good ones we have on site.

[Pippa]

Well you know the hearts of men - so you must be GOD. Right? :shock:

No Max I dont and cant judge the hearts of men, and yes only God can do that. I was definately not doing that, and I dont think I deserved that accusation from you.

I was referring to the Bible and what it says about the anti Christ and what he will be and where he will come from etc etc, you know the passages I am talking about.

Please dont put words into my mouth. I never implied I was God.

[Tears of Ash]

I'm just saying that by the time the anti-christ makes His appearance, nobody will be around to quote the bible and be like, "Oh yeah that's the guy!"

[Br. Max]

No Max I dont and cant judge the hearts of men, and yes only God can do that. I was definately not doing that, and I dont think I deserved that accusation from you.

I was referring to the Bible and what it says about the anti Christ and what he will be and where he will come from etc etc, you know the passages I am talking about.

Please dont put words into my mouth. I never implied I was God. it was tongue in cheek. Take a joke please. Secondly - The anti-Christ will paint himself as some kind of sweet wonderful kind guy.

[Br. Max]

I'm just saying that by the time the anti-christ makes His appearance, nobody will be around to quote the bible and be like, "Oh yeah that's the guy!"you're forgetting about the remnant ;)

[Tears of Ash]

it was tongue in cheek. Take a joke please. Secondly - The anti-Christ will paint himself as some kind of sweet wonderful kind guy.

i wish i was the anti-christ. :(

that way chicks would dig me. :twisted:

[Br. Max]

i wish i was the anti-christ. :(

that way chicks would dig me. :twisted:dude - they wouldn't dig you even then. http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/brmax/smilies/happyrim.gif

[Tears of Ash]

ouch.

[Pippa]

it was tongue in cheek. Take a joke please. Secondly - The anti-Christ will paint himself as some kind of sweet wonderful kind guy.

I apologise, I was upset with something in RL and I let it influence my posts here today.. I really am sorry.

Now let me think, who do I know that is a sweet wonderful kind guy? 8-)

[Br. Max]

I apologise, I was upset with something in RL and I let it influence my posts here today.. I really am sorry.

Now let me think, who do I know that is a sweet wonderful kind guy? 8-)DANG IT! where's my halo???


http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/brmax/smilies/angel-devil.gif

[Pippa]

You will have to do better than that one Max, its tarnished and dented. lol

[ToyotaCamry]

it has? :shock: when did that happen? 3/4 of this thread is fluff and banter.

Pretty early on.

[herev]

The good thing with this thread is that it has made absolutely clear that P_G is not a cult leader and that the Nehemiah Center is not a cult. This thread has been positive in that respect.



No, prefiero decir cabeza de mierda...
lol, yo tambien

[Swart]

The accusation has been leveled that P_G is a cult leader and the Nehemiah Center is a cult. This seems to me to be an unfair characterization. Below are a list of characteristics of a cult. I don't see how any of these apply to either P_G or the Nehemiah center.

1. Control over the smallest details of life
2. Double standards
3. Takes license with God's word
4. Loyalty to group replaces loyalty to Christ
5. Separation of members from family/friends
6. Focus on an imagined enemy
7. Rules are kept secret
8. Mystical altered states are emphasized
9. Leaders are prideful and unteachable
10. Require excessive tithing or giving
11. Curses and threats used on those who try to leave
12. Leaders are often promiscuous and/or violate sexual mores

With the exception of the last one, that sounds like my youngest son! :-)

[cas07]

mod note: i split the thread as requested, and the url for the new thread is http://uberchristians.org/vb/showthread.php?t=1812 . it is in the apologetics section with the title showing respect for the lord's name (split from embassy). thanks for your patience with the janitor...

i now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion regarding P _ G ...8)

[BelindaP]

Thank you.

[DarkAngelic]

Harry Potter is a cult leader.